PCFlank forum post slams Outpost

[TACO]

The following link is to a recent post on PCFlank's Software forum that really makes bad comments about Outpost.

http://www.pcflank.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=201

Can some of you more knowledgeable firewall experts please comment on this thread? Does this Jim dude really know what he is talking about or is he just "full of it"?

I personally found his posts somewhat disjointed. He gives few details on his methodology so his comments are hard to evaluate. If his writing style reflects his testing procedures, then there were probably significant flaws in his results.
Thanks,
Taco

[bassbag]

Hi....Jim is entitled to his opinion.Saying that I too have tested many firewalls over the last few years.Started with zonealarm,went on to tiny then sygate then outpost.Ive also tried blackice (actually if you are a student ..they let you have it for free ....so I became a "mature student for a while :) ).I also use 98se and dial up.In all Jims views on each firewall I could personally disagree.For example on my machine sygate did not slow everything to a snails pace and I found it very good though it did have problem with the loopback option (which it didnt have at the time I tested it).Tiny worked great ,and if you dont mind making hundreds of your own rules then great.Zonealarm also worked fine except uninstallation which is a nightmare .As for Jims comments on outpost and conflicts with other programmes..well to me thats a bit of a silly comment ,because Im thinking if Jim had problems with the other firewalls i.e slowdown with sygate ..the he must be having conflicts on his computer with sygate.It seems to me that Jims comments stem from the fact that he has been unable (maybe by not spending long enough with each product)to get to "know" the programm,and after experiencing "conflicts" has automatically blamed each firewall ,rather than maybe his computers own configuration or another application.All the firewalls passed leaktests etc but none compares for me to outpost.Ok so the cookie blocker isnt the best ,but with its plug in technology it can easily be improved.That goes for all the plug ins.
me

[root]

Sounds like some wannabe kiddie that thinks he knows something. (Nothing against the younger generations implied here, it just a handy term to use.) Another somebody with an opinion and trys to validate it with noise about doing a study or whatever. Then to make it official, make it overly long. He he.
I don't think you'll need any help over there Taco, but if you do let me know. :D

Good points bassbag. :p

[grey ghost]

Hi
I agree with all of you.

He posted a long personal opinion and gets upset if you question it.

It looks to me either he posted under another name or a person he knows posted to back him up.

The saying a little knowledge is dangerous applies here.

Regards

[Jack Benny]

Well my impression of his "analysis" of firewalls, is simply that of someone who has had problems with installations, conflicts, and misunderstandings of proper configuration and usage. He gives no real insight into his testing methods, so others can duplicate his findings. He makes no mention of any correspondence with any of the firewall makers to rectify what he sees as flaws or exploits.

He doesn't seem to be able to avoid getting Trojans on his system. He doesn't say whether or not he's formated between tests to avoid any conflicts with (incompletely) uninstalled firewalls, and the occassional Trojans, which could have interfered with subsequent installs. There's also the possibility that he tried to run more than one firewall at the same time.

He seems to think that what he's found on his one system/setup, applies to everyone and all circumstances.

Regarding his critisisim of Outpost (again, he's assuming it applies to everyone), it sounds to me like he ran it in Allow Most mode. No mention of contacting the developers or forum for help.

If all he wanted to do was share his own experiences, that would've been fine. Instead, he claims software flaws, without trying to work them out with the developers. As an "analysis", I consider it useless.

[TACO]

Thanks everyone for your replies. Your assessment agrees pretty much with my own. As I said above, without more details his comments are essentially useless/worthless.

[Danil]

Recently one of PCFlank readers contacted our support and asked to comment Jim's posting. Here is the reply of our tech Support:
======================
.....
> Now to the crunch why criticise Agnitum when it appear does pass all these
> tests here with flying colours? Appear being the operative word! The
> configuration settings in its programming is very unstable and can leave a
> netbios open

No way.

If he has any proof of open NetBios then he is welcome to show us this proof
either on our forum or by email.

> and the other ports showing as closed instead of stealth,

Only because of misconfiguration.

This case is described in the FAQ of our forum.

> despite the configuration showing the opposite ,by simply installing
> software which conflicts with it or certain web bugs or Trojans which
trick
> it into opening.

Outpost can't stop user from installing programs (including Trojans).
However as soon as this Trojan will try to set the connection Outpost will
inform the user to set new rule for xxxxx program. On this step user can
find out that he don't know what xxxxx program is.

> Even regular testing via a correct proxy finder sends the
> settings you configured into instability.

If the user has any problems then he can report them to us. Otherwise, all his words are shaking the air. God knows what settings this user set in Outpost...

> God help us when a Trojan is
> about. The cookie plug in is a joke as is the popup/ad remover one.

Active Content plug-in does everything what it is set to do. Block cookies,
popups etc.

The same with Ads plug-in.

> After a
> few weeks of usage the netbios in your PC is dangerously worked open yet
> Agnitum keeps appearing as if it is not in settings.

We don't see any proofs of that...

[hayc59]

i read the same post right after he had posted and i agree with Root!! maybe in time he will understand!!;) ;)

[RISC OS]

From his posts he sounds like several people at other security based boards that I used to visit (but no names ;)), especially after saying Sygate was best :rolleyes: no surprise there :D

He doesn't go in to much detail about his tests, or give any reason to believe that his test are valid, given that as he says he's a layman when it comes to firewalls and testing, I wouldn't put to much in what he says.

Also he criticises the plugins, why? Who knows? He doesn't say why, I bet he uses something like Prox. Ad filtering for me works great as does popups and cookie filtering. Did he modify the settings? Ad new strings? Use agnis? OP defaulty set up is very open and only blocks a few strings by default beacuse users using a firewall and filtering for the first time wouldn't understand why their favourite site was know longer accessable after installing OP. If he wants the kind of filtering like Prox provides then he should use prox, personally I actually want to enjoy the 'net and not just view web pages as plain text which sounds like the kind of filtering he wants OP's plugins to do.

I been using OP for quite a while, I even remember when this forum only had one category where all posts went! I haven't had any instability issues in it until the last build (and this is only on 2K, though it's been fixed in the version). I've not had any problems with Outpost not blocking Netbios, or anything else.

I notice he has only made a few posts, looks like he joined just to do some firewall bashing, maybe because hes one failed? Also after Taco told him that he used OP and asked for reasons why Outpost was a bad (in his opinion) he didn't actually give any, infact he didn't even mention OP in his next post? Why not? Maybe because Taco, who actually uses OP and would be able to spot all the flaws in the way he had set up Outpost for his testing.

I think he just doesn't like the fact the people prefer to use something that's easy to use and doesn't require them to become a systems admin. He says that Kerio is for the advanced user, what crap, there's nothing that kerio can do that OP can't, or Symantec, Norman, etc. He also doesn't like it when people criticise him.

hmm... he sounds more and more like the person I'm thinking of!

About the only thing that was worth reading or that on the face of the evidence he presented, could be said to be true was that you should stick with what ever firewall suits you best. There are loads of security sites around with so called experts telling you that they tested all firewalls and found one that was best, none of them have come to the same conclusion, one reviewer will tell you it's Look and Stop (which he didn't seem to test), another ZoneAlarm, a third will say it's Tiny or Norton.

About the only thing you can safely say about all these so called firewall tests is that the the firewall that comes out best will be the reviews favourite anyway before the tests were started and that firewalls with a good GUI or that have features to help those new to firewalls will ususally be the ones to get branded 'the worst'. It sounds like to me that he thinks hes somekind of 'elite' because he likes to use a firewall with a poor interface and crap usability.

[user020989]

"Jim" now appears to me to be posting anti-Outpost messages under 3 different user names at the pcflank forums. All of his aliases refer to forum posts as "emails," and share the same distinctive, awkward writing style. They're making wild, totally unsubstantiated claims, like announcing that both AVG and Outpost will damage your computer's system files and the Windows Registry.

[root]

Hi user020989. Don't worry about it. I went ahead and registered so I can aggravate him a little, but he's not doing any harm to anybody but himself.
Also there are only 300 and some people registered there, so he's not getting much of an audience.
I'm guessing 15, maybe 16, very unhappy home, He gets no attention there, so he's looking for it on the net.
Sad really.

[user020989]

Well, you certainly succeeded in aggravating him. Today's rash of angry attack rants, posted under the user name "Reaperman," drive the last nail into the coffin of his credibility. ;)

[root]

I didn't see anything credible to begin with. Too bad. PC Flank would be a great place for a security forum, especially n00bs, but looks like it needs some work. To start with, they need some mods to start taking control and limiting the personal attacks there.
I'm not going to waste my time on trolls. Play with him if you want to. It can be fun if you're bored. I've been too busy lately to mess with loosers. :)

[chrisclu]

Hi User,
I loved your last post there.:) You did good:):)
I also agree with root about getting a MOD or two at the PCFlank forum. Until that happens, I see no further reason to go there.
Chris

[user020989]

Originally posted by chrisclu
Hi User,
I loved your last post there.:) You did good:):)
I also agree with root about getting a MOD or two at the PCFlank forum. Until that happens, I see no further reason to go there.
Chris
Thanks! For the past couple of years, I've used ZA Free, and I'm currently still using v2.6.xxx of that. I'm waiting for v2 of Outpost to come out, at which time, I'll probably switch to either the free or paid version of Outpost. In the meantime, I've been lurking here and at the PCFlank forums for the past several weeks, trying to learn as much as I can.

[TACO]

Hi User,
You are a "lurker" eh? Well welcome to the forums! As you've probably already learned during your lurking, this is a great site. Lots of friendly people with a huge knowledge base and very willing to help. I too was a ZAP user until early this year. I switched to Outpost Pro and haven't regretted it for a minute!
People like Jim and Reaper on PCFlank's forum don't know what they are missing. If they had taken the time (like Root said) to visit here and post sincere questions without blindly ranting, they too would be using OP now. Oh well, it's their loss.
Hopefully version 2 will be out soon and you can stop lurking and come out of the closet. :D

[chrisclu]

:D:D:D

[user020989]

Originally posted by TACO
...Hopefully version 2 will be out soon and you can stop lurking and come out of the closet. :D
Thanks, but I think maybe I'll just participate in some discussions. :D :D :D

[Danil]

I also agree with root about getting a MOD or two at the PCFlank forum. Until that happens, I see no further reason to go there.I sent the link to this thread to webmaster@pcflank.com. Possibly it is correct address to inform somebody in PCflank about discussion here and our suggestions to there forum.

[TACO]

Hi Danil,
I also sent an email to them detailing the concerns expressed here along with the suggestion that they seriously consider changing to a moderated forum format. They state that emails will be answered within 24 hrs. Let's see what their response will be.
For those of you interested in also contacting them, here are their email addresses:
For general information and comments: info@pcflank.com
For technical support inquiries: support@pcflank.com
For bugs and error found: webmaster@pcflank.com

[dom424]

I sent emails too. Thanks for the links.

[Watchman]

That sad guy is just looking for some attention. I'm glad this forum does not support that kind of behavior. We've only had one troll so far and he/she was stopped in his/her tracks. Life's too short...

[Tezpur]

user020989;

Welcome to the forum. Why lurk when you can jump in?...go ahead, the water's warm!

Un-install whatever firewall yer running and install Outpost.

What are ya waiting for?

:D

[user020989]

Originally posted by Tezpur
...What are ya waiting for?
:D
I'm waiting for v2 to come out before I make the switch. :cool:

Thanks for the welcome. This is a friendly and helpful place. I'll join in when I think I can add something to the discussions (which probably won't be very often, since you guys already know much more than I do about this stuff.)

[chrisclu]

Hi user,
You'd be surprised how much we learn from new users. Your questions make us think about and come up with solutions we we never have thought of on our own:)
Chris