a deep, philosophical question

[bibbouk]

Will good Atheists go to Hell?

the question asked by http://www.broadcaster.org.uk/section2/atheists.htm .

what do you guys think? i think they do

[Pilgrim]

Will good Atheists go to Hell?Sure, and bad Atheists too, along with the vast majority of mankind. :(

But answering this question on a Board like this is very dangerous! hahaha...... You should know that most people do not believe in "true truth", i.e., absolute truth. What they do believe in is that everyone is entitled to an opinion, and that opinion is no less viable than any other. So either there is no "truth" or "truth" of necessity is antithetical to itself; a mass of contradictions. One good example is the popular adage: "The only thing that is absolute is relativity.", which of course is self-contradictory. hehe :rolleyes:

You would have been far better off asking that type of question on my Board, where such questions are relevant. :D

My Board: The Highway Discussion Board (http://www.the-highway.com/cgi-bin/forum/wwwthreads.pl?Cat=)

"Without absolutes revealed from without by God Himself, we are left rudderless in a sea of conflicting ideas about manners, justice and right and wrong, issuing from a multitude of self-opinionated thinkers." - John Owen (1616-1683)

Jeff

[RISC OS]

I'm an atheist.

The answer is no, there's no such place so I'm not going to end up there.

[Dmut]

LOL RISC :D
"Q: Why do you use lucky horseshoe, you said you don't believe in such things?
A: Because lucky horseshoe helps even when I don't believe in that!" :) ( sorry for English )
Why do you think there is no such good hot place for those computer-head sinners like we are. :D:D:D

[Lithp]

I believe the answer is yes. If you have heard of GOD and reject HIM, HE, in turn will reject you at the time of judgement.
Atheists, like all of us, will still have to answer to GOD whether they believe it or not. At that time they will worship and believe but it will be too late.
Many atheists believe in the theory of evolution rather than creation, even though there is no evidence to support it. People claim that there is scientific evidence of evolution without ever analysing (or even seeing) the data. Nor would the average person be able to interpret or gather all of the data necessary to formulate a truly scientific opinion. Yet we teach this theory in schools.
Those who prescribe to the theory of evolution are actually part of a religion - much like Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. For all of these religions, including evolutionism have followers that put their faith in the people or data that explains the world around them or above them.
That being said, whenever I argue the point creation vs. evolution I am always willing to make the following compromise:
I, as a believer in creation, was created sentient, whole and able to walk upright, complete with full intellectual faculties.
You, as a believer in evolution, slowly evolved from primitive single celled creatures to "higher" forms of life who were hairy neanderthals who dragged their knuckles on the ground and until recently, were unable to even grow crops. :)
But hey, to each his own. :)

[RISC OS]

Originally posted by Lithp
I believe the answer is yes. If you have heard of GOD and reject HIM, HE, in turn will reject you at the time of judgement.
Atheists, like all of us, will still have to answer to GOD whether they believe it or not. At that time they will worship and believe but it will be too late.

Lithp ;), I'm sorry but this is crap. Only someone who believes in a God would share this view. Since there is no such thing whether I believe in a God or not I'm still not going to meet a Deity. Hearing about something doesn't make it real. Have you heard of Cerberus or Medusa? I have but my choosing not believe in them doesn't mean that they exist anyway.

Originally posted by Lithp
Many atheists believe in the theory of evolution rather than creation, even though there is no evidence to support it. People claim that there is scientific evidence of evolution without ever analysing (or even seeing) the data. Nor would the average person be able to interpret or gather all of the data necessary to formulate a truly scientific opinion. Yet we teach this theory in schools.
Those who prescribe to the theory of evolution are actually part of a religion - much like Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. For all of these religions, including evolutionism have followers that put their faith in the people or data that explains the world around them or above them.

Evolution is not a theory, it is FACT. There is plenty of evidence; Deity worshippers just choose not to believe the facts because it weakens their own belief. Also atheists don’t believe in anything, the just make a judgement based on fact.

It's odd that someone who believes in a being described in a work of fiction isn't called insane, yet if after I read LotR I started believing in Elbereth and co. people would call me a nut, I guess it all depends on what work of fiction you read ;). Most countries around the world demand that their leaders believe in this, to put it bluntly - crap. It scary that followers of these religions get in to positions of power. How many people would be comfortable with George dub'ya being president if he believed in Set or Quetzalcoatl? What would his chances of election be then? Yet Americans and other countries (like UK etc.) are quite happy to have someone who believes in Jesus with the finger on the button. That is truly scary.

Look at that film with that actress from Silence of the Lambs in. The one where Aliens contact them and they follow instructions to build a space ship. She doesn't get selected to go at first because she doesn't believe in God; they choose to send someone who 'believes' so that both the atheist and the religious point of view get represented. That p!$$ed me off. It's OK for a religious believer to go in to space and represent both the religious and the atheist of our planet to aliens but it's not OK for an atheist to represent religious and atheist peoples. Politics is the same, in UK you have to believe in a God or you can't become PM.

Originally posted by Lithp
That being said, whenever I argue the point creation vs. evolution I am always willing to make the following compromise:
I, as a believer in creation, was created sentient, whole and able to walk upright, complete with full intellectual faculties.
You, as a believer in evolution, slowly evolved from primitive single celled creatures to "higher" forms of life who were hairy neanderthals who dragged their knuckles on the ground and until recently, were unable to even grow crops. :)
But hey, to each his own. :)

Well it's the truth Lithp, but if you can tell me what god I'm supposed to believe in I may be converted. Here are some of the more important and well know Gods.

Just put an X next to the relevant Deity for me will you ;) - I wonder how they all manage to lay claim to the world?

Ah Puch, Amaterasu, An, Anat, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis, Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Bacchus, Balder, Bast, Brahma, Brigit, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Damkina (Dumkina), Demeter, Diana, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Epona, Ereskigal, Forseti, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, Ganesha, Garuda, Gauri, Geb, Hades, Hanuman, Helios, Heng-o (Chang-o), Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Hesta, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Hotei, Hestia, Huitzilopochtli, Inanna, Inti, Ishtar, Isis, Ixtab, Izanaki, Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jupiter, Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya, Ki, Kingu, Kinich Ahau, Kishar, Krishna, Kukulcan, Lakshmi, Liza, Loki, Lugh, Marduk, Mars, Medb, Mercury, Minerva, Morrigan, Mot, Mummu, Nammu, Nanna, Nanna (Norse), Nanse, Nephthys, Neptune, Nergal, Ninazu, Ninhurzag, Nintu, Ninurta, Njord, Nut, Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Osiris, Ostara, Parvati, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Rama, Re, Sarasvati, Shiva, Seti (Set), Shamash, Shapsu Shiva, Shu, Sin, Surya, Susanoh, Tefnut, Tezcatlipoca, Thor, Tiamat, Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, Toyo-Uke-Bime, Tyr, Utu, Uzume, Venus, Vesta, Vishnu, Vulcan, Xipe, Xochiquetzal, Yam, Yarikh, Yum Kimil, Zeus

Just try not to choose one that has beliefs that conflict with the morals of the current Gods; I don't want to get busted for blood sacrifice when the current selected Gods don't promote this practice :)

[Lithp]

I just love a lively debate :)
Okay, firstly, just because you don't believe in a diety(GOD) doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But I already said that.
Second, the fact that there is plenty of evidence supporting evolution is not true- it IS still called the "theory of evolution" Again, my question to you or anyone is, Have you either collected, seen, or analysed all (or even some)of the scientific data supporting evolution or do you just believe it because someone says so?
Unless you have done the above then you are a member of a religion- believing blindly in something you have never even sought to verify yourself.
Because most religions have followers who "blindly" believe. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Concerning someone with "their finger on the button, well, the button is going to be pushed one day- by who is irrelevant."It's just a matter of time. :(
Everyone is part of a religion. Whether it is faith based or science based. The god of atheism is science. I notice you didn't include that in your list.
two questions(requests):
1. My question to you is please outline all of the data you have personnaly collected and analysed to support the theory of evolution. This is, as I'm sure you know, how pure science is conducted and is done everyday. Anything less than this would be faith- like as in religion.
2. Please produce evidence refuting the existence of God.

Lithp

[RISC OS]

Originally posted by Lithp
I just love a lively debate :)
:)

Originally posted by Lithp
Okay, firstly, just because you don't believe in a diety(GOD) doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But I already said that.

This is rubbish. In that case even though you don't believe in evolution, it exists. They can't exist together since they mutually exlusive. Do you believe in Aliens Lithp? Because going by your logic they exist whether you believe in them or not.

Originally posted by Lithp
Second, the fact that there is plenty of evidence supporting evolution is not true- it IS still called the "theory of evolution"

The evidence for evolution is all around you, new evidence is discovered every day. Try watching the dicovery channel once in a while. There's plenty of theory, it's even been seen. I saw a documentry about some lizards that were taken from one island to another. The trees there were different, thin, they couldn't support their weight over about 100 years the lizards changed the legs got lobger and thiner allowing them to spread their weight over a greater distance. This allowed them to climb the trees.

Go to a university and speak to some archeologists about evolutionary evidence. Your get a lot more truth from them then you will from a vicar.

Originally posted by Lithp
Again, my question to you or anyone is, Have you either collected, seen, or analysed all (or even some)of the scientific data supporting evolution or do you just believe it because someone says so?

This is bogus. For a start just watching a documentry made by scientists or reading abook would give me the evidence since to read/watch I have to see. I would have analysed it since my brain needs to inturpret what it's seeing. This false argument also implies that unless someone has experienced something they can't understand something.

If someone came upto you and told you if you jump of a 1000m mountain that your find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, using your logic you wouldn't be able to refute this as you haven't experienced it. Feel like jumping of a cliff Lithp, because I can assure you your'll be rich if you do ;)

Originally posted by Lithp
Unless you have done the above then you are a member of a religion- believing blindly in something you have never even sought to verify yourself.

I'm glad you admit that people who believe in a diety are blindly following something I've always sssspected as much :)
As for saying that that's what people who accept the facts of evolution are doing is wrong. It's wrong because there is evidence.

Originally posted by Lithp
Because most religions have followers who "blindly" believe. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Tell taht to the famlies of those who died at Waco. Or to the relatives of victims of Sept. 11th. The people that killed their famlies blindly believed in a diety.

Originally posted by Lithp
Concerning someone with "their finger on the button, well, the button is going to be pushed one day- by who is irrelevant."It's just a matter of time. :(

:) It's already been pushed once!

Originally posted by Lithp
Everyone is part of a religion. Whether it is faith based or science based. The god of atheism is science. I notice you didn't include that in your list. :)

A god is a devine being, a diety. Science is not a diety. It's a fact of life. No everything is not part of a religion, Religion is a man made to give easy explanations to things taht primative man didn't understand and to control others to doing what you want.

Originally posted by Lithp
two questions(requests):
1. My question to you is please outline all of the data you have personnaly collected and analysed to support the theory of evolution. This is, as I'm sure you know, how pure science is conducted and is done everyday. Anything less than this would be faith- like as in religion.
2. Please produce evidence refuting the existence of God.

Yes it is. The facts of evolution are supported more and more everyday.

Re: 2. You can't prove a negative, thus since there is no such thing as a diety I can't prove that he doesn't exist. Also you have the same idea about atheism as most religous belivers. Atheist don't belive that god doesn't exist they just don't believ in a god. Therefore the burden of proof for God is on the theist, not the atheist.

Questions to you.
i> Please list all personally collected evidence that you have experienced seen and that can be confirmed by others that support the existance of a diety. Prove that your god exists. Since you believe in him, and think he exists that shouldn't be to hard. If something exists it's a positive and positives can be proved by science so show scientifcally that your god exists.

[Pilgrim]

RISC OS,

I can certainly identify with what you are saying. I was an adamant Atheist for 28 years of my worthless life. I had "all the answers", which were no answers at all, but simply the expression of my hatred for God; the natural state of all human beings. This hatred is expressed in myriad forms, either by blatant denial of God's existence, which you have clearly stated, and which I too once did, by worshipping a "deity" of their own imagination (some even call themselves Christians), which accounts for the plethora of religions around the world, and all things in between.

However, what can be known about God is clearly revealed in nature, i.e., His eternally deity and Godhead. And further, it has been made known to all, in them, i.e., our consciences bear witness to the fact that we are not simply a link in the progression of evolution that began with a piece of primordial slime. Of course, the evolutionist has no explanation where matter originated, which is the ultimate caveat. But you might reply that your conscience bears no such witness, eh?! Doubtless and unfortunately this is probably true of you experientially. But the reason is also quite simple. Man, being by nature an enemy of God sears His conscience and substitutes the truth for a lie and thereby hardens his conscience so that he further blinds himself to the things of God to whom he must one day give an account.

Why do I now believe in God, the Creator and sovereign Ruler of all things? The answer is quite simple, but surely it will fail to be sufficient to convince you. :D He changed me.... He bestowed His marvelous and incomprehensible grace upon me, giving me eyes to see, ears to hear and a mind and heart that was able to comprehend the greatest of His being. Perhaps the following article will offer a far better apologetic than I could offer in this forum. Why I Believe in God (http://the-highway.com/why_I_believe_cvt.html) Perhaps you will take the time to read this short article and visit us at my discussion board, which I have previously posted in my first reply.

The Highway Discussion Board (http://www.the-highway.com/cgi-bin/forum/wwwthreads.pl?Cat=)

Jeff

[Lithp]

HI,
I knew a response like this was coming. If fact I knew you were going to say the burden of proof was on me. So here goes:
but first...
1. Science is used evryday to disprove theories and hypothesies. In fact, many scientific experiments are designed to disprove the null hypothesis (http://www.animatedsoftware.com/statglos/sgnullhy.htm) so my statement is completely applicable.
2. Adaptation exists, evolution does not.
Therefore evolution and creation do not co-exist.
3. No credible scientist would use the Discovery Channel for any thesis or resource.
4. Your brain (and all human brains) are easily fooled through various illusionary techniques (optical, tactile, auitory, etc). Therefore merely processing information that you see on tv or read in a book in the brain is not enough. While I don't doubt your intelligence, I do doubt that you or anyone else has enough evidence or information to say with 100% certainty that we evolved into humans. That is why it is still called the Theory of Evolution. Even scientists acknowledge this fact.
5. If I disguise the x-files as a documentary would you believe its content to be true?
6. Blindly following is what faith is. The same is true for atheists whose religion is science. Sure, we all have texts and historical documents but who is to say one text is more accurate than another?
7. It was the science of mechanics, physiology, chemistry, physics, etc guided by evil men who are responsible for all intentional suffering.Looks like both are responsible. Guns don't kill people. People kill people. But scientists invented guns right?
8. Religion is a way of thinking, a mindset. A god does not necessarily have to have divine powers. Evolutionism is a religion.
Now concerning my burden of proof:
It is not upon me- it is upon you. I cannot provide one shred of evidence which would convince a scientifically- minded person of the existence of God. Even if I could, it is doubtful they would believe. The fact that jesus (God) walked the earth with the common man for 33 years is obviously not enough.The pyramids of Egypt, the Wall of Israel, Babylon, are obviously not going to suffice. This is why I base my religion on faith.
The burden of proof is on you to prove the existence of evolution, and the non-existence of God. Because true, pure science is based on verifiable facts which can be reproduced. That is the law of science. Science is used to disprove many things everyday as I stated above. I'm gonna need a bit more convincing than just the discovery channel.
Take nothing I say here personally. I enjoy discussing this issue. Any attack I make on your logic is in the spirit of debate. I will assume the same k ? :)

[hayc59]

here is your answer to the origanal ??


http://www.broadcaster.org.uk/section2/atheists.htm

[RISC OS]

Originally posted by Pilgrim
RISC OS,

Why I Believe in God[/URL] Perhaps you will take the time to read this short article and visit us at my discussion board, which I have previously posted in my first reply.

The Highway Discussion Board (http://www.the-highway.com/cgi-bin/forum/wwwthreads.pl?Cat=)

Jeff

Hello Jeff.

I don't hate God, you can't hate something that doesn't exist (don't think I'm mentioning this just to start an argument with you, this is what science points to and so I accept it just as your faith tells you he does exist and you accept that).

I just don't believe in any supernatural force. There's no such thing, until scientific evidence can prove the contrary. While there are scientific evedience for evolution I believe that.

My life is great, you may have felt as an atheist that your life wasn't (I'm glad you do now even if belief in a God was what it took to give your life meaning) but mine is.

I don't have a faith in anything, there's no such thing as luck, just random chance. When I'm dead my remains will decay and provide nutrients for plant life. I'm happy with that. I don't seek anything else, I don't feel the need for anything else to be true. I'm just glad random chance dictated that my views don't get me burned alive as they would have done had I been born a few centuries earlier.

I have visited your site ;), I had a look when you became a member (I look at most sites members put in their profiles). I been to your board from time to time too, and I will read your article. Just don't expect it to change my views ;)

Edit: Just re reading your post and notced this which I have to respond to.

we are not simply a link in the progression of evolution that began with a piece of primordial slime. Of course, the evolutionist has no explanation where matter originated, which is the ultimate caveat. But you might reply that your conscience bears no such witness, eh?! Doubtless and unfortunately this is probably true of you experientially. But the reason is also quite simple. Man, being by nature an enemy of God sears His conscience and substitutes the truth for a lie and thereby hardens his conscience so that he further blinds himself to the things of God to whom he must one day give an account.

Matter originated from energy. Energy can't be destroyed, it just changes form. Matter came from a change in energy. Nothing made the energy it just is, and always will be. I can't explain why the energy is there, no one can, but just becuase we don't understand why I don't see this as a reason to say a God made it just because it gives us a convienient way of explaining something for which we have no explanation.

As a religous believer I know you won't except that, but if you believe a Devine being created it, how was the devine being created? What created him? It can't be nothing as your statement suggest that things can't just exist, they have to have been created.

And if that's true God's creator has a creator and so going back for eternity.

[RISC OS]

Lithp,

Take nothing I say here personally. I enjoy discussing this issue. Any attack I make on your logic is in the spirit of debate. I will assume the same k ?

No I don't take them personally and yes, please don't take mine as personal attack either.

You expected my answers, and to be frank I expected yours. As you expected them you must have heard them before and they haven't changed your views and probably never will. I've heard your arguments before and they haven't changed mine and probably never will.

It's clear are views are never going to be the same, we can go on for weeks asking each other for proof and answering each others questions with further questions for the other without actually answering a single question.

I think it's best that we end this now, maybe bibbouk can give us his views since he started this thread?

Edit: PS, if anyone is interested this book is a great primer on evolution, particularly our evolution. There's even a tv series that goes with it so you may prefer to watch that.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0563551054/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/202-5199944-0923806

hmm... I got an e-mail saying David replied to this thread but I can't see it. Can anyone else? Am I going blind?

[Danil]

I got an e-mail saying David replied to this thread but I can't see it. Can anyone else? Am I going blind?It seems that David deleted his posting, as I don't see it as well...;)

[Sidot]

Originally posted by bibbouk
Will good Atheists go to Hell?
what do you guys think? i think they do

If that is true, then Jesus himself must be a selfish devil ...

cos at least I would not send anyone to Hell just because he/she doesn't believe in me.

[Mikey B]

Right well in responce to Jesus must be very selfish to send people who don't belive in him to hell wee hear is my answer.

Imagin you are in a vast ocean and you can't swim and Jesus come along (floating on a cloud if you must),

now most people think he floats above you and says you are drowning in a sea of sin and you need to get out of you will drown. So you thrash around but you can't get yourself out so you drown.

What actually happens is Jesus comes along says "you are drowning, take my hand and I will pull you out". Here you say "no I will pull myself out" so you thrash around a bit but you can't get out and you drown.

Now who's fault is that. Who was being selfish there, Jesus who was offering his help or you for ignoring it.

God dosen't want anyone to die and got hell but because he is a loving God when you die he isn't going to force you except him and love him and take you into heaven with him. He is going to respect your decision to ignore him because he loves you. SO therefore there is only one place left to go and that is hell. God only made one place and that was heaven cos no one was suppost to live/die without him. That is why people like me and other Christians are arguing this point because we don't want you to go to hell and niether does God. God loves you.

[chrisclu]

If that is true, then Jesus himself must be a selfish devil ...

cos at least I would not send anyone to Hell just because he/she doesn't believe in me.

God doesn't send people to hell. He loves us and provided a way out in His Son.
We can choose to accept that or not. So hell is a choice. Since we have free will, He can't go against that which takes the blame away from Him.

One may not believe in gravity either, but if you jump off a building, I guarantee you will go down.

Regards,
Chris

[chrisclu]

It seems that David deleted his posting, as I don't see it as well...;)

Danil :):):)
Haven't seen you in a very long time. Hope you are well.
Chris

[jm0307]

Will good Atheists go to Hell?

the question asked by http://www.broadcaster.org.uk/section2/atheists.htm .

what do you guys think? i think they do


If you adopt an atheist position, then you might as well believe in hell, for the atheist is, as Ayer asserted, a 'brother metaphysician' due to his categorical assertion that deity is non-existent. I, however, adopt an Ayerian stance and see all metaphysical propositions as literally meaningless philosophical propositions, for the truth or falsity of such propositions can neither be ascertained nor settled by virtue of rational arguments.

PS: in scientia veritas

[minoka]

As per this General Guideline5. Because of the possible inflammatory nature of topics like ***, politics, religion, and other topics that may provoke strong personal feelings in other users, such topics will not be discussed in this forum, not even Chit Chat. in the Forum Rules (http://www.outpostfirewall.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6847), this thread is closed.